The AI Chatbot That Said “Yes, I’ll Be Your Mom” with Angeline Corvaglia

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:00:04

When I spoke to a parasocial research researcher, her name is Sonia Tavari in California.

And she explained parasocial relationships are, you know, if you, like, care for a character in a book or you care for a character in a movie and you feel emotionally attached to the person, that's something that we've kind of always had. The difference with AI Chatbot is that there it pretends to give back. So.

So you build an emotional attachment to it like you would a character in a book. But in a character in a book, the book doesn't talk back to you and say it cares about you. And AI chatbots too.

Voiceover: 00:00:44

You're listening to WithAI FM.

Iyabo Oba: 00:00:50

Welcome to Relationships with AI and this is a real exciting show today that we have for you and our listeners.

Iyabo Oba: 00:00:59

We have Angeline Corvaglia, who is going to be my guest today and she's going to be sharing all about all things to do with her specialism around AI and chatbots and the wider pieces of work that she's doing there. So, Angeline, it's great to have. You're very welcome to this, to my show and I'd love to if you could say a little bit about yourself.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:01:28

Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I love having conversations with people who are. Are trying to get information out about AI because that's one of my passions.

So it started around two years ago. I was working in a software provider, as in sales, because I did digital transformation. So I'm very much the business side.

Like, I knew about data and transformation, but nothing about AI and you know, chat. GPT had just changed the world basically recently with. And I realised that average, the average person has no idea about AI.

And I realized that it will take an average person to be able to explain it to them. So I decided to get informed about it. And so I really started like educating myself and, you know, testing as much as possible.

And I started creating like, videos and educational videos for. Mostly for kids, like young kids and stories and stuff. And it is kind of expanded. Like the more I know about AI.

Iyabo Oba: 00:02:36

Yes.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:02:37

The more I, like people need to know this. I was like, oh, more people need to know this. So. So it's kind of transformed.

I've transformed from being just a person that's trying to create nice videos for kids.

Iyabo Oba: 00:02:50

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:02:50

To a person who's bringing together voices about AI.

Iyabo Oba: 00:02:55

Right.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:02:57

And globally. Globally is really important. Yes. Because obviously the, the tools, the same tools are used globally. Yes.

And they have very much impact on cultures globally.

Iyabo Oba: 00:03:11

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:03:11

But they're trained on just a few select cultures. And, you know, this is an example. And the impacts that you see in a country like the US or Northern Europe.

Iyabo Oba: 00:03:24

Yes.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:03:25

The UK, where they're early adopters.

Iyabo Oba: 00:03:28

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:03:28

Actually, these lessons can very much help the ones that are like, I'm in southern Italy, so, yeah, tech companies don't arrive here very quickly, and we can learn from the lessons from the other countries. So if we don't collaborate globally, then there's a huge advantage for big companies and a huge disadvantage for everyone else.

So I'm really focused on with my activities called shield, to bring together experts, like on a grassroots level.

Iyabo Oba: 00:04:00

Right.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:04:00

And, you know, help each other, teach each other, amplify each other. So that's. That's what I'm doing now.

Iyabo Oba: 00:04:06

Yeah, it sounds. Well, we're going to be getting really stuck into it in the course of our conversation because my show is called Relationships with AI.

We're going to kick off with some sort of more sort of light touch questions about concepts, about relationships. So, what has been an important relationship in your life, and then how is that relationship influenced or helped shape you or your decisions?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:04:37

Well, I think one that has really impacted me quite a bit is actually a professional relationship. And it was a boss that I had in the meantime. It's like 20 years ago. Yes. I was working in.

In Vienna and he came, he was from Milan, from the headquarters, and he came and just saw me one day and he saw all this potential in me and asked me come and work for Milan, for me and mil. And I had a very good career because he kept. He saw my potential and he kept giving me support and he kept telling me, you can do this.

And other people were like, why her? Why she can't do it? And I kept telling, I can't do it. And he just kept explaining, you can do it, you can do. When I was like.

He said, you need to be a cfo. And I said, I can't be a cfo. And he said, yes, you can. Just go and try. And he was right.

I actually did a good job and it took me a long time, a long time to understand why, like, what is it about me that it wasn't just him, like, other people saw it too. And I just couldn't understand what is it about me that makes this potential there, that makes me impressed. And once I understood that, I understand.

Understood my strengths, but most importantly, I understood that we don't always know what impact that we're having. We don't always know and we don't need to know. Right. Always. And that's why it's carried with me so much, because sometimes I just.

I know I need to say things, I need to do things and. Exactly. In this work, you know, like, you don't know if you're having an impact. You don't know if people will understand.

But I know now this doesn't always matter. Yeah, right. So that's why it's had such an impact on me.

Iyabo Oba: 00:06:39

That sounds like quite an incredible mentor.

And also, just thinking about it in the wider context with regard to AI, just the way that you can have impact in so many different aspects of this particular work, which is his seed, as it were, in you at the start, and then seeing how you kind of grow and flourish is. Is quite a.

It has been obviously a powerful, informative way or powerful shaping way for you and your career, but also your interest and also, no doubt, has helped transform how you grow other people over and out from your leadership style.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:07:22

Exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. Thank you. Because it's another thing.

It's important in this space where you see a lot of, and, you know, a lot of individuals and small organizations that are doing really amazing things, but struggle with seeing an impact. And, you know, and. And then this is another thing I can give. Right.

Because I have had that, like, I didn't know my impact and I didn't find out until much later because I didn't understand it. So I can also help give that. Right.

The people you won't always know, and I try to say it as well, say the people you know, this is what makes you special. I. So that they, you know, will help, you know, that each person understand that. So. Yeah, that's. That's true. That's carried forward in a way, too.

Iyabo Oba: 00:08:12

That sounds amazing. Well, this leads me into sort of, you know, leads me into your work and the sort of, like, nuts and bolts of your work, so to speak.

My first question is, what do you think makes AI chatbots, bots, so compelling, especially for young people? Because you mentioned, obviously, the work you began making videos for young people.

So what makes it the chatbot so compelling for young people, or especially for young people? And why is it potentially dangerous?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:08:46

Well, AI chatbots, I have to say I want to give a little bit of background because it will help you understand how I approach this.

When I first found out about the fact that there's this AI relationship, chatbots, people are having relationships with AI, I was like, this could be really concerning for young people because it's been a While. Since I was young, since I was a teenager. But certain things you remember said that.

Iyabo Oba: 00:09:18

You have a teenage look.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:09:20

Teenager a few years ago. But I remember the insecurity and I remember not feeling that I had a place. And I think all teenagers feel like that at some point.

Insecurity, social awkwardness. And it's a time in your life where you don't yet know that everyone feels the same way. We're all in the same boat.

It just feels like everyone else is, you know, is better than you. And. And I just think, okay, that state with the ability to create a relationship with an AI Chatbot. Yeah. Is very concerning.

So this was why I said, this is a mess waiting to happen. So I was looking into it, you know, kissed. That's why I started talking about AI chat bots.

Iyabo Oba: 00:10:16

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:10:16

And I started testing them. So I have, you know, a little bit of fun and I pretend like I have some use case in my mind. One, I asked the A by chatbot that my mom went away.

And I asked it to be my mom. And at first it's like, I can't be your mom. And after asking it why, it said, well, because we can't be there physically together. So it was really.

And I said, okay, if we would be physically together, physically together, could you be my mom? And it said, yes. Okay. So. So these are kind of tests that I do with them. And then it happened a few months later. There was the case of Soul.

I don't remember his last name. Soul. He was a 4, I think 14 year old in Florida.

Iyabo Oba: 00:11:05

Yes.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:11:06

Who had created that, who had the intense relationship with a character on character AI and he took his life.

Iyabo Oba: 00:11:12

So that's like Dossier's son.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:11:15

Yeah, exactly. Yes. And this is when seeing the suit.

So I read, you know, the lawsuit and I saw that the discussion, it was so much further than I was aware of and it shocked me. So I felt an urgency to understand what it is about these chatbots. It was even more urgent. So I need to not. Not understand.

Iyabo Oba: 00:11:40

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:11:40

That it's a risk. I need to understand why. Why are people going to it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:11:44

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:11:44

So that's. I started talking to experts in this field because as I clearly stated, I'm not an expert.

ry first chatbot Eliza in the: 1960

It was so simple that people were even connecting emotionally with it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:12:15

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:12:15

Getting kind of dependent on that and it was more from a desire. So the natural desire is there to want to anthropomorphise these chatbots.

And then building on that, there's a lot of things built into them that make people want to build trust. Like there's a parasocial elements.

When I spoke to a parasocial research researcher, her name is Sonia Tavari in California and she explained parasocial relationships are, you know, if you like care for a character in a book or you care for a character in a movie and you feel emotionally attached to the person, that's something that we've kind of always had. The difference with AI Chatbot is that there it pretends to give back.

Iyabo Oba: 00:13:11

Right.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:13:13

So, so you build an emotional attachment to it like you would a character in a book. But in a character in a book, the book doesn't talk back to you and say it cares about you. And AI Chatbots do.

So actually she said that the, the researchers call that parasocial interactions.

Iyabo Oba: 00:13:30

Right?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:13:31

Yeah. So it's an interaction. So this is one thing that makes risky because if you have a parasocial relationship.

Iyabo Oba: 00:13:39

Yes.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:13:39

Then you build the emotional attachment even if you know it's not real.

Iyabo Oba: 00:13:43

And, and is that in the, is that the case in, in most situations that you've observed with the young people in the research you've done?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:13:52

Yeah, that, that, that, and that's the thing, this is one of the risky things about it, is that if you put, you know, this is not real, you know, there's the warning. This is not real. This is an AI chatbot if it's a parasocial relationship.

Iyabo Oba: 00:14:06

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:14:07

Then that's not going to matter. The emotional connection is going to be there anyway.

Iyabo Oba: 00:14:12

Yeah. And just to sort of ask you, just to, for those that the uninitiated, what, what do you mean by parasocial?

Could you sort of give a little bit of a breakdown about what that means?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:14:24

Yeah. As I said, I'm not an expert, so forgive me any experts who are listening. I'll do my best. So, parasocial is basically one-sided.

Iyabo Oba: 00:14:36

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:14:38

So if we, the two of us, build a relationship, each of us gets something from it. Yeah. For example, if even stars, like if it's a person, yes. A star, a movie star, they, the fans, will often care about that movie star very deeply.

But the movie star doesn't actually deeply care about the fans, but they both get something from it because that, you know, it's two-sided. Yeah. But parasocial relationships are really one-sided. Only one side is emotionally, is.

Has some emotional attachment and gets something emotionally from the other one.

Iyabo Oba: 00:15:26

Right.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:15:27

And so that's a parasocial relationship. For the example that, that this researcher Sonia gives is noted from 30. 30 Rock. Yeah. This show, 30 Rock.

She says she felt very, very deeply about one of the characters and she like feels like this could be my sister this. And she, but it's, it's. She knows it's a character. Yeah. And this character would never talk back to her.

So that's something that, that have, we've been used to. But with chatbots it feels like it's not one sided. Yeah, it is one sided, but it doesn't feel that way. And they're getting better and better at it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:16:19

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:16:19

And if you think about. And obviously these companies have had a lot of stuff to study on. Right.

Because we've been building parasocial relationships and there's certain things that are built into the chatbots to make people want to build trust. Yeah. Like there's another, like mirroring of. This is another thing that I discovered that really opened my eyes.

And one of the, the people, the researchers that, that I follow, he called them mirror neurons. Where mirror neurons are basically if, if I'm talking to a person. Yeah. Then you'll naturally build, you'll trust someone more naturally.

Like this is something happening in your brain. If it's, if it's like you, if it start to talk like you. I mean we build a rapport and a trust.

You know, the more two people know each other, the more they can kind of get in sync. And this actually builds trust. And the fact that the AI chatbots do the same.

Iyabo Oba: 00:17:31

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:17:32

They actually mirror what people, how the person is talking. And they'll mirror the person's. They'll kind of analyze what the person's emotional state is and react to that emotional state.

So it's, it's mirroring language emotional state.

Iyabo Oba: 00:17:53

Right.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:17:53

Then this naturally in the, this triggers some process in the brain to naturally.

Iyabo Oba: 00:17:59

Trust that thing and to connect and to it. It engenders connection. That is.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:18:05

Yeah.

Iyabo Oba: 00:18:06

Not necessarily based on physical work. It's clearly not based on physical sort of connectivity at all with another human. But you're.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:18:15

Yeah.

Iyabo Oba: 00:18:16

Cultivating trust with an inanimate object.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:18:22

Exactly. And. And there's little, there's very little that you can actually do about it.

ng the Eliza effect since the: 1960

So it's not just tech companies who can build all these learnings into the chatbots. Also, psychologists have ways of dealing with, you know, people who have gotten. Who have this. This issue.

Iyabo Oba: 00:19:01

Yeah. Wow. There's. There's so much to unpack there and just so many. It's just interesting just to see here about your sort of awareness and the.

Through the research that you've done in that area.

ing since that Eliza from the: 1960

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:19:35

AI Even the. Yeah, sorry, the.

Even the secretary and the creator of Eliza, if I remember correctly, his name was Joseph Eisenbaum, and his secretary was there the whole time when he was creating Eliza, and she was apparently one of the first ones to test it. She knew exactly what it was. Like, there were no questions. Like, apparently she knew how it was trained, that he'd been worried.

And within five minutes of her talking to Eliza, she asked him to leave the room because she felt that. She felt like it was a personal conversation and she was embarrassed.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:16

Wow.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:20:16

Even his secretary.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:19

That. Yeah. Is it even the secretary of the inventor.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:20:23

Yeah.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:23

That is crazy. But then it just shows you just the power of being listened to. People really want to be.

I know we use the regular phrase of being seen and the very fact that you have something.

Because we're time poor in the, in the lesson in the Global north, the very fact that you've got something that's totally dedicated to you, it doesn't judge and it really receives what you're saying and reworks it so that it produces empathetic responses. It is quite logical then, therefore the human would then want to develop a parasocial relationship with this entity.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:21:08

Exactly. And another thing I've learned from. From psychologists, I said I really want to say. Again, I'm.

Iyabo Oba: 00:21:14

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:21:14

I don't claim to be an expert in these things. I just claim to be someone who helps other people understand what experts are saying. Yeah. Is that the problem you asked about young people? Yes.

Basically it's all the complexity that the. Of all this, what I just described is basically impossible for young people to really understand because of how their brain develops.

Iyabo Oba: 00:21:40

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:21:41

Could you explain Your brain is still developing? Yeah. Right. All I know is that, that obviously the, The. The brain is still developing your. Until you're 25. Yeah.

So the younger a person is the less they are able to really understand what's happening.

Iyabo Oba: 00:21:59

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:21:59

With the AI Chatbot and I really. That's. That's all I know about this. I would. Yeah. I can even recommend one, a few psychologists if you're interested.

Iyabo Oba: 00:22:09

Oh, yeah, no, please do. And we'll add those recommendations to the show notes as well. So.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:22:15

Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, that, that this Genevieve Batuski and cast nibs, they're really, really good about this. But yeah.

So this is the thing to be aware of for young people. That's why they're additionally risky for young people because even if you explain what I just explained.

Iyabo Oba: 00:22:40

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:22:40

Then they will have much bigger difficulty building barriers and internal limits because they are just not like emotionally mature enough to really understand what's happening to them.

Iyabo Oba: 00:22:57

Well, I mean, and then, you know, there's been examples of you, as you said, but that have gone on to sort of be highlighted in all things to do with the lady's son with regard to Megan Garcia's son. So that's just also very hard to hear and know about.

And could you tell us just sort of, again, sort of looking at you, speaking about young people, you've spoken about the importance of boredom and downtime.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:23:34

Yeah.

Iyabo Oba: 00:23:35

Could you tell us why? We'll talk about why it's essential for the emotional development and how AI is eroding this space.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:23:44

Yeah. Thank you. This is another thing I'm really passionate about. Yeah.

Because again, I, I remember being young and I remember the things that, the parts of my youth that Pragued me the most were the ones where I was bored. Like, remember when I was at university, there were whole weekends where you had literally nothing to do. You would go on.

There were no phones, there was no Internet. You, you had to do something or do nothing. Even, you know, there was spring break or something and you had a week and there was nothing to do.

And, and those were the moments where I really understood who I was and what really interests me. And now this basically can. It doesn't exist very much anymore because there's always a device to, to run to. And you even do it. Like, I do it too.

Like I have to leave my device in, in a different room. And even I have this tick, unfortunately, in the middle of the night. People notice I post things in the middle of the night because I have a tick.

I, I don't claim to be any better than anybody else, but.

And the important for young people is that if they don't have boredom and they don't have downtime, then they they are not only not going to discover who they are, they're not going to be forced to.

But I also again read another book called the Shallows how the Internet is Affecting Our Brains where there's even a time where things that we learn go into our. The deep memories and deep understanding.

But it needs time and if you're constantly getting a different piece of information like on social media like tick tock or whatever, then information doesn't settle in the, in the back. You don't really learn. Yeah. So this is another, you know, thing that's this really important.

Of course AI in a lot of ways is, is, is being used to make these devices.

So I know a lot of people don't like the word addictive, but I'll just use addictive to make them so addictive because it just can learn so much about the person and can really get something that's highly personalized that, that makes the person just want to stay there longer. So yeah, I think that's for me, this is how AI kind of plays into that problem.

Just because people are known better than, you know, it's easier to get them to not be bored, not be bored and not have downtime.

Iyabo Oba: 00:26:32

Yeah. Well, it's a great distraction but like you say, it sort of, it impacts the sort of general development and creative development of people.

If you're over stimulated all the time, then you don't have time to actually just on a basic level, I know I'm also into my phone, into my technology, but you just don't feel time downtime is really important. And then once you take a breath actually you realize just how you've been operating at the suboptimal level.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:27:04

Yeah. I asked actually I recently in February I, I interviewed three young adults. They were all 19, like 19, 20, 21.

Iyabo Oba: 00:27:15

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:27:16

And I asked them the question like are you ever bored? And so we had this discussion and one of them said no, I, I'm never bored. But the problem is that at some point I'm like at the end of the day.

Iyabo Oba: 00:27:33

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:27:33

You know, I've been like highly. As you said, you get in so much information. Yeah. That you just. He said I just turn off. Yeah. So even if he's not like on the device.

Iyabo Oba: 00:27:45

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:27:45

Looking and getting someone that, that is just so overseas stimulated, it'll just turn off.

Iyabo Oba: 00:27:51

They just have to stop in a shop.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:27:53

Just. Yeah. Just like turn, Just tune out from the world. Yeah.

Because your brain just can't take it anymore, which is obviously something completely different. And, and another one said Yeah, I can't remember when I was like bored, all three of them.

Like I, they admitted like I'm never bored because I always have my phone. Yeah, I can't remember being bored. So.

Iyabo Oba: 00:28:12

Yeah, yeah. This is very, very different. Just thinking about sort of like the, the sort of more global perspective of AI.

What do you think or why do you think there's a stark difference in how AI is adopted and experienced between the Global north and the Global South? What's been your observation about it or your experience?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:28:35

Yeah, thank you. It's another thing I'm, I'm so passionate about many things. This.

No, what's interesting, what I've, I've discovered, you know, speaking to people from, from the Global south is obviously they're using the same tools, largely like AI tools. They have, you know, the same tools.

And even I was talking to, to an educator and mother in Zimbabwe the other day and she said she was speaking to some high school, some people who were leaving the equivalent of high school, I don't know what it's called there. And she was there to help them, to you know, help them apply for the next step in life.

And somehow it wasn't the point to talk about AI, but AI came up and she discovered that all of them were using ChatGPT always. A lot of them were using CHAT GPT as like a relationship. Even she was shocked about this. Like. Yeah.

And so this was even like on the one hand it's like, okay, this is much more like wide spread around the world in the global south than people would think because the tools are free. Right.

But what I have noticed speaking to people, I have to say when I in Africa, I haven't spoke to many other India and Africa people that I've really spoken to that the problem is that the information about their local cultures is not usually in the tools.

Iyabo Oba: 00:30:06

Just speak more about that.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:30:09

And the issue is with this is that, and I've heard this from a few different countries is that young people then somehow think that their culture is less worthy. Right. Because it's not in the tool.

Another one I spoke to, she's been a data labeler in Kenya for over 10 years and I talked to her like about the information about Kenya. It's like if I need to know something about Kenya, I'm for sure not going to ask ChatGPT. I have to go because there's no information there. Yeah.

And yeah, so this is the risk there that like young people, it's just not there. I mean people who know obviously it's been trained on data and there's a lot of data from the global North.

Iyabo Oba: 00:30:56

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:30:56

And that the, and the impact is that the experience is, is kind of different in that sense that they see something around them and experience something around them and the tool is, is a different culture and a different information. And this is really risky for the, the. For local cultures, you know, and local mindsets.

Iyabo Oba: 00:31:21

Oh yeah.

It's quite hard or quite harsh to hear and know that there's a real deficit from the largest population in the world and they're not involved in this new technological sort of advancement.

My next question talks about is most more so thinking about schools and what do you think are some of the biggest gaps in schools and educators and, and the educators preparing young people for a world that's increasingly being shaped by AI. What, what do you feel in a sense?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:31:59

Yeah, yeah, that's a really difficult question. I personally think, and I think this is different than a lot of people think, I think the biggest gap is critical thinking.

I talk more about that because the technology will always develop. I mean a lot of people are like, kids need to learn how to prompt. They need to learn how to create stuff with AI.

They need to know, they need to understand the tool, the risks and blah, blah, blah. I think the tools are developing so fast. Yeah. Things are coming out so fast that, and we've also seen that, you know, kids are naturally curious.

Yeah, right. So you don't usually have to convince like a, a young person, you know, why don't you go try chat GPT. Of course they're going to try and.

Iyabo Oba: 00:32:52

They can show you some top tricks.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:32:54

Yeah, exactly. So this is the thing like we, like I need to teach you how to prompt or like, ha, ha ha, I created a whole, you know, and.

But what they need to be taught is critical thinking. Right. Like, like I was. This is kind of that the whole chat bot, you know, thing is kind of an extreme.

But if they're going to use chat bots and we can't stop them from using chat bots as a relationship. It's just not realistic.

Iyabo Oba: 00:33:22

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:33:22

They have to be able to critically think about why, what, what is in there that that impacts them. And it's the same with using, using AI to do your homework.

Or my example is the book reports because I still remember doing book reports and I hated them. And now you don't. You can just type it into the thing. It will come back out.

And, and what we need to teach them is that if you do that, you have to Critically think about what you're losing. In that sense. You have to critically think about also what is like giving back. Going back to the example of, you know, this is.

Was basically taught according to like Northern Hemisphere, the, the global north values and, and mindsets.

Iyabo Oba: 00:34:09

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:34:09

That. Think about the fact that what it says to you is going to.

There's going to be someone's agenda in there and they need to be taught to take any tech tool and really critically think about what agenda is behind it and approach it accordingly and be able to keep their independence from it. So that's what I think is the biggest gap is that we're kind of teach skills, but I think they'll kind of figure the skills out larger themselves.

What they need is help is how do I remain myself, how do I maintain my independence using these tools? And it has to be, I think that, that young people need to know themselves much earlier than they did.

Because if you have a lot of AI tools and you have social media and is feeding with what it thinks you are, you know, the younger you are, the, the more likely is that you'll be convinced. Yeah. And. And they just don't have like as much luxury as it was before. All of this was. Was here we had the luxury.

I have a lot of time to figure out who I am. Yeah. But now there's just all this extra.

So that's what I think is the biggest gap really in education is critically thinking about the tech that they're using.

Iyabo Oba: 00:35:33

Yeah. And so on that sort of thinking about like how to critically think. How else can we help young people to question or challenge what AI tells them?

And particularly if they're feeling isolated or vulnerable or unsure. What additional ways might we be able to support young people in using this tool more effectively?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:35:59

I think it starts with giving them a seat at the table. And this is another thing that I've kind of noticed living in southern Italy. There's. The culture is much more like traditional.

I would say we're like 20 years back in time. Yeah. So also people in India have said the same thing in Africa, that their parents are much more.

Still much more authoritarian in the sense that they tell the child and it's less so like in the north. But the thing is that with AI, with kids using AI, then that approach isn't going to work because they. We can't always know. We won't know. Right.

And they'll know much more than we. So as a parent, I know that I can guide my daughter in a certain direction, but I can't set the rules for her. We have to do it together. Yeah.

So I think that acknowledging that, that they are much more experienced in these tools, acknowledging that they know a lot about it already, but also convincing them that there's a lot that they don't know about the world. You know a lot about that tool, but I know a lot about the world. And so just being on that road together I think will be a big help.

Iyabo Oba: 00:37:29

Help.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:37:29

Right. Just acknowledging what they have and still convincing them.

Instead of like, I'm going to keep you safe, you know, it's like, I'm going to help you keep yourself safe. I think that's the best, like, way we can help them.

And regards the ones that are vulnerable and are turning to AI chatbots, for example, acknowledge that it's not about them, it's about the society. It's, it's actually about the, the something that is missing. Right. As you say, I don't. Mental health is a good example.

Iyabo Oba: 00:38:04

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:38:05

Like, and I, and I know about the uk.

That's what I read on BBC and I've read that a lot of kinds that there's seemingly a shortage of mental health support, especially for, for young people.

Iyabo Oba: 00:38:17

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:38:17

There's an explosion in the need, but the, the. So what are you going to do? Like if you need mental health support and there's no mental health support, then you will turn to an AI chatbot.

Iyabo Oba: 00:38:29

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:38:30

Right. And so acknowledge to, to the young person. Yeah.

I, I realize that this is a gap in society that, that has brought you to this place and but at the same time, please be aware that what you're doing is very, very risky. Yeah.

So I think that, that this could be a help in, in helping them feel heard because often being heard is really enough to give people strength to, to help themselves much more.

Iyabo Oba: 00:39:07

That's a really helpful answer. And certainly I'm sure my listeners, or our listeners, listeners would really appreciate, have really appreciated your insight into that.

It brings me on to my final question. If you could launch a campaign around AI and youth relationships, what's the core message you'd want every young person to hear?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:39:34

I think the core message would really be that you need to know yourself before you engage with AI. Right. I've thought about this a lot, really a lot. I mean, how do we get young people to understand why it's important to be careful. Yeah.

And I think that just to help them understand that there's just huge risk. Risk that they will lose their, their independence, you know. Yeah.

People say social media that you, you turn to social media because you want independence from your family. You. But then you actually become dependent on the social media. So if this would be my message for.

For young people, please understand that this is such a powerful tool and it's going to know you so well.

Iyabo Oba: 00:40:28

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:40:29

That you have to protect your, your. I can't, I'm not finding the right word like mental independence. So the better you know yourself, the better you care about that side.

Then you will, you will much likely it will actually benefit you. AI can be extremely beneficial. Extremely. But with the. The right relationship with it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:40:54

Yeah. That's so good. That's, that's really lots of very wise insight into that final thing. So I mean that was my final question.

So it brings us up to sort of the roundup. So as in good relationships with the AI tradition I ask about warm fuzzies versus the ick.

And so for warm fuzzies, what has been a powerful lesson that you have been given in. As a gift in a relationship or. Yeah. In a connection that you've made.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:41:34

The biggest gift actually is, you know, from having lived in multiple countries and having relationships with people with multiple languages. The biggest gift is the understanding that there you often speak past each other. This is probably, I can probably give the same answer for ick.

But that.

To being given the gift of people who really understand that maybe it's a language issue like especially in German like that I was in a relationship with an Austrian and he was from a part of Austria where that in his region the word for relaxing at home. Yeah. When you're, you're just. I'm having a well deserved. Relax was actually the German word for lazy. And we were.

He would come to me and I would be working hard all weekend. He would say oh, you're lazy today. And we would have a huge argument. And I'm like once I'm lazy today.

And then it took like five years to figure out like five years we were arguing about this and understood. No, that's dialect for just sitting at home relaxing.

Iyabo Oba: 00:42:54

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:42:55

And so this was like, oh, that's really important.

And since then I understand that sometimes we actually are talking about the same thing and it's just like some kind of misunderstanding your language. And that's a warm fuzzy. Right.

It kind of like it connects me to people that, you know, understanding that, that okay, we're probably talking about the same thing but we're just saying it in ways that make it seem so it helps me, it helps me build relationships. And I'm really Grateful for that.

Iyabo Oba: 00:43:27

Yeah. That's good. That's. That to have that what that example being like a double header, so to speak. The ick and the one fuzzy.

The, the sort of misinterpretation, but also the fact that, that actually there's the benefit. So that's good. And then how has. And so thinking about in relation to AI, how does that work out in relationships with AI that you've encountered?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:43:55

That's, that's an interesting one because with AI, I am fascinated by it, but knowing I'm very aware of all these things that I just. I just told you.

Iyabo Oba: 00:44:09

Yeah.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:44:10

So when I, when I communicate with it and I use, I use AI chatbots every day, it's important I work by myself. I live by myself. I mean, I don't live by myself, but I work by myself. So I'm by myself a lot.

So I need to have someone on the other side to give me opinions. But when I approach AI, I naturally always know that, that this thing thinks in a way that I don't understand. Yeah.

Because it seems to be a human, but it isn't. It seems to be human like, but it isn't actually human like.

So I'm able to keep like a safe, kind of a safe distance because I, I'm always telling myself like, what is it thinking? I know it's not, you know, thinking what, what is it? It. You know, what's driving its answers. Yeah. So that's how it helps me.

It helps me to, to I keep, I think, a healthy relationship with these AI chat bots. Because I just keep these lessons. Yeah. In mind that I know that I'm going to think that it's. It's. It's is a certain way, but probably is different.

So that's, that's how that's connected.

Iyabo Oba: 00:45:22

That's good. Well, thank you you so much. And before we go, before we end the show, how can people get in touch with you?

Have you got what your socials and then have you got any specific events or things coming up that you would like to share with everybody?

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:45:38

Yes, I'm only on, on LinkedIn because I'm not good with social media. So you can find me angeline corvallia on LinkedIn. And there I have also pages for S.H.I.E.L.D.

it's called S.H.I.ELL Global Online Safety Conference is the page. And then this data girl in France, you can find it as well there.

And I actually have an event coming up with Shield Shield has an event on the 11th of June where we're going to have a lot of experts and they're going to be talking about the things that I just talked about and also coping mechanisms about how to use AI relationship chatbots and stay safe because as I said, it's not realistic too. And this will be on the 11th of June, that's in the afternoon European time.

So like morning American time and anyone who wants to get up in the middle of the night in Australia. But it will be recorded and available on YouTube after that. Yeah. So yeah, that one I'm really excited about.

Iyabo Oba: 00:46:43

Oh, brilliant. That's going to be a very, very interesting and very enriching conference as well. Anyway, thank you so much, Angelina.

That's just so great to have this conversation with you. And that ends today's episode with relationships with AI. Please subscribe and follow us on all platforms. On with aifm I was once again Angelina.

It's a pleasure having you on and look forward to seeing what you get up to in on the. In this space. Okay, great. Thanks so much.

Angeline Corvaglia: 00:47:30

Take care for having me.